Xⁿ Talk | 喻红 Yu Hong
Xⁿ Office has been connected with the world-famous female Yu Hong for several years now, and we have been looking for an opportunity to do a more in-depth interview with her. While her solo exhibition is showing at the Long Museum in Shanghai, we took the opportunity to visit her and had three relaxed conversations with Yu Hong. This interview is based on excerpts from these three conversations. We believe that Yu Hong’s perpetual, sensitive feedback on her personal experience and the era make her a significant figure in contemporary Chinese art history. In this interview, led by her works of art, we review several phases of Yu Hong's creation and her reflections on some key issues.
| Yu Hong, Shanghai
Xⁿ: On the occasion of the opening of your solo exhibition The World of Saha at the Long Museum, we take the opportunity to have an extended interview with you, hoping to review the changes at different stages of your art career over the past thirty years and the thinking behind your works. You have mentioned that you developed a liking for painting at an early age. Could you please tell us more about that?
The World of Saha, Exhibition View at the Long Museum, picture provided by the Long March Space
Yu: I didn’t draw for specific purposes when I was young, but my parents didn’t want me to run around outside, so they prepared paper and pens for me to paint at home to kill time. Painting was luxurious at that time. Everything was so scarce that it was very difficult to buy six pastel pencils in different colours. My mother worked in a publishing house. There was leftover paint at her workplace. If no one used it, it would dry out. Therefore, I got to take the paint and use it. Preparing the paint for my paintings was the most exciting moment for me. By tearing the skins of packaging off, breaking them into pieces, and soaking them in a paint box filled with water, they would be softened overnight, and ready for use the next day. For that reason, painting also brought me an extra sense of achievement, which lasts long in my life. When I was eight or nine years old, I started drawing at the Children’s Palace in Beijing. I went there every weekend and spent an afternoon there learning painting. I drew children's paintings, then I began to learn basic drawing, still life and portraits. In the 1980s, when I was 14, I was admitted to the high school affiliated with CAFA (Central Academy of Fine Arts). From then on, I received proper art training. After spending four years in that high school, I finally got into the oil painting department of the Central Academy of Fine Arts.
Half-Hundred Mirrors No. 13, 2018, acrylic on canvas, 100x90cm, picture provided by the Long March Space
Xⁿ: When you were in college, many western art theories and catalogues of western art sprang up in China. Western art at that time was very different from the art education you were receiving at the time and the definition of an artist in Chinese society. Did it impact you hugely?
Yu: It was not long after the reform and opening when I first entered college. The Central Academy of Fine Arts was one of the most active art institutes at that time. Artists and art teachers who came to Beijing all stayed at the dormitory of CAFA for a few nights. In such an environment, everyone talked about art and discussed art concepts actively and passionately. There were many seminar groups and societies, which were enthusiastic about trying various artistic experiments. We were of full curiosity about the new ideas, and we attended seminar groups and participated in many small and simple art exhibitions. We even copied a lot of catalogues at that time and taught ourselves plenty of things. Eventually, I also came to realise that the Western definition of 'artist' was not at all the same as the 'painter' I had imagined myself to be as a child. However, in class, we learnt the painting skills developed from the Soviet Socialist Realism in the 1950s, but these painting skills were completely separate from my free art creation. At that time, I felt that these new trends were too far away from me. Even though I actively learned about new things outside of class, I calmed myself down and painted quietly when I went back to the class. It would be difficult to imagine such a state of painting nowadays. The David I drew when I was in college gained lots of attention. Some even said that it had never been surpassed since. In fact, I think it has little to do with painting skills, but rather with the fact that society has changed, and students have all sorts of thoughts and anxieties in their minds. Only few people can draw as calmly as there is nothing left in mind.
David, 1985
Xⁿ: When the ’85 New wave took place, you were already studying at the Central Academy of Fine Arts. Although you didn’t participate in the art movement, did the ’85 New wave art movement affect you in any way?
Yu: At that time, there were two main paths in the creative field. One made the provincial and local nature the major theme. The other was the new trendy art movement. The avant-garde art with progressive concepts was also adopted by many students in the college, and these works had a significant influence on me. However, I still chose to be an 'active observer' and remained focused on the study of painting.
Green And Pink Lady, 1989, oil on canvas, 130x97cm, picture provided by the Long March Space
Green Portrait. 1989, oil on canvas, 130x97cm, picture provided by the Long March Space
Xⁿ: Your graduation works were portraits of your friends, and you pursued a relatively flat and pop style. Similarly, we can see this style in Zhang Peili, Geng Jianyi’s works, and other Cynical Realist works. Why did you switch from academic art to another expression of art? How long did it last?
Yu: I want to correct one thing here. The work you mentioned wasn’t created for my graduation. My graduation works were two portraits and two groups of figure paintings, depicting a kind of crowded state. During that period, I was still in a studying mindset. The two portraits were quite exquisite and flat, and I adopted the Expressionist style for the other two groups of figure paintings.
The group of paintings that you mentioned was painted in 1988 after I graduated from college. I was looking for a more explicit direction for my art creation at that stage, so I chose some close friends as my theme. I rendered the paintings with a flat, pop and monochromatic style through which the subjects of the paintings could be detached from reality. Therefore, the paintings looked surreal, and the figures seemed like travelling between reality and the flat world. At a time when computers and Photoshop were not available, it made this kind of art creation very challenging. Peili and Lao Geng, they specifically chose this style more of political purposes. On the contrary, my works were personal and life-oriented from the very beginning, and I tried not to talk about politics in my art.
Xⁿ: Indeed, many art critics and art historians regard you and Liu Xiaodong as the opposite of the “85 New Wave”, more concerned with things around them and the details of life rather than political ideals. You said, “In the time of the Cultural Revolution, people only talked about ‘us’, and there was no ‘me’. ‘We’, as a collective, as a nation, as a country, ‘we’ should do such and such. An individual was like one drop of water in the ocean, and it just disappeared. One’s individual values could not be fulfilled.” Is it why you are more interested in personal experience?
Yu: It’s perhaps because I grew up in the late period of the Cultural Revolution. I saw the grown-ups attending various political campaigns and demonstrations, and for that reason, I was more repulsed by such high-profile and conceptual things, such as ‘empty words and bogus speech’ and the ‘red and bright’ aesthetic style. Instead, I became more interested in intimate, delicate, direct, and sensual things. That’s why I created the above-mentioned portrait series of my peers. That was the earliest series of mine. Then I started the ‘Witness to Growth’ series.
Deng Xiaoping’s Tour in the South of China, China Pictorial, p. 2, no. 6, 1992, and 1992, Twenty-Six Years Old, A Still of the Film The Days, 2001, from Witness to Growth, 1999 – Present, Two parts, left: inkjet print, 68x100cm; right: acrylic on canvas, 100x100cm, picture provided by the Long March Space
Xⁿ: You initiated the series Witness to Growth when you became a mother. You shifted your focus to the intersection and parallel path of individual life and the era. In this series, you documented the growth of you and your family, as well as other people’s life paths in the same era; as you grew up in a transforming era, you studied, worked, got married, had a child, and witnessed your child’s growth. I visited the Long Museum with my father, and we both saw the Witness to Growth series. Sometimes, he pointed at one of the paintings and reminisced about the time back then. For me, even though I was born at a different time, some of your paintings are still very touching. For example, the painting of you cutting your bangs reminded me of the movie The Days. It felt like I entered into the painting, and you were there in the steaming room, trimming your fringe while the news is broadcasted on the radio. The whole picture was marked by that era. The way images from the Witness to Growth series are juxtaposed with the images from the news provokes the fresh memories of beholders. It can capture moments that were long gone in the past. Is this one of your standards when you choose images for Witness to Growth ?
Yu: In the Witness to Growth series, on the right-hand side, there are photos I selected from my family album. I keep them the way they are, using black and white for black and white photos and colour for colour. On the left-hand side, I put photos from the news published by the authoritative organisations. The right-hand and left-hand sides do not necessarily have a direct relation, but they were produced in the same year. So, they constitute the same background and social atmosphere of the time, from both personal and social clues.
Golden Horizon, Shanghai Art Museum, 2011, picture provided by the Long March Space
Three Parts, Left: Neweekly, Issue 361, December, 2011, pp. 254-255, 100x67.83cm; Middle: Yu Hong's solo exhibition, Golden Horizon at the Shanghai Art Museum, when she was 45, 100x100cm; Right: Liu Wa 17 Years Old, acrylic on canvas, 100x100cm
Xⁿ: Witness to Growth is like your album of creation. But at the same time, it is such a valuable archive for a researcher. For example, in 2011, the exhibition Golden Horizon opened at Shanghai Art Museum and was also recorded in the ‘Witness to Growth’ series. In Golden Horizon, you exhibited a work titled Romance of Spring, which referenced the structure of Court Ladies Preparing Newly Woven Silk. The works, The Ladder of Divine Ascent and One Hundred Years of Repose, were influenced by altarpieces. In addition, Atrium was based on a blueprint, the ceiling mural Triumph of Hercules and Four Seasons. Expect your long-term interest in classical paintings, were there any other reasons that led to the creation of this series?
Yu: The idea originated from a sketching trip to Dunhuang when I was a student. Later on, before I started the series, I went to Dunhuang again with my students. The cave painting gave me a strong and immersive experience, which was different from my experience with flat painting. Cave painting occupies all four walls, and the ceiling blends in with the environment, and therefore, it creates a unique immersive field for viewers. Cave painting is also the origin of all paintings. I want to trace the origin of paintings through this series. It signifies that paintings should not be only constrained in a bordered flat surface. They should form an integrated space for audiences to immerse themselves in, which forms a new dialogue.
Dunhuang Cave 285
Atrium, 2009, acrylic on canvas, 500x600cm, photo provided by the Long March Space
Three Parts, Left: Neweekly, Issue 327, July, 2010, p. 48, 100x151.07cm; Middle: Yu Hong was drawing on the ceiling in Shanghai when she was 44, 100x100cm; Right: Liu Wa 16 Years Old and Pigeons, acrylic on canvas, 100x100cm, picture provided by the Long March Space
Xⁿ: During the time when you were creating Atrium, you were also invited to paint the ceiling of a mansion in Shanghai. This event was recorded in Witness to Growth too. What kind of opportunity was this? What did you paint on the ceiling?
Yu: That was after I created Atrium. That mansion was the earliest British Consulate General in Shanghai, and artists were invited to participate in its art creation there after the mansion was renovated. I already had the experience of making Atrium, which was hung from the ceiling in the exhibition space. Beholders needed to look up at the ceiling to view the work. I was thrilled that I had the chance to create an actual ceiling mural. That mural also has a golden background, and the theme is related to music. It took me about 2 months to finish.
She - Artist, acrylic on canvas, photography, 150x68cm, picture provided by the Long March Space
The Shot, 2018, acrylic on canvas, 250x300cm, picture provided by the Long March Space
Xⁿ: We talked about that you drew portraits of close friends decades ago. In The World of Saha, you recreated these portraits. I heard that you had interviews with the people portrayed in these portraits and talked about their recent experiences these years. Did you interview them first and recreate the portraits? For example, in the first portrait, you drew portraits of Jiang Jie and Xiao Lu together according to their photography and were of a documentary nature. However, there is less documentation in the new portrait, and instead, there are more designed elements. You put some of Xiao Lu’s performance art in her new portrait. Why did you combine interviews with paintings? What is the most challenging part of capturing their achievements, experiences, and changes over the years in a confined space?
Yu: The ten portraits in The World of Saha are based on the video interviews I had with these ten people. The questions in every interview were almost the same. I asked them to look back on their childhood, adolescence and recent lives and talk about some details in their lives. Although most of them are my close friends for years, we don’t talk about such serious and in-depth subjects in our conversations in real life. Hence, these interviews were very significant for the subsequent making of portraits.
I got to know them again and understand their lives and their worldviews through these interviews. Then I could recreate the portraits according to the information. Therefore, instead of taking them as models for my portraits, it is a combination of many elements and information to present a picture of them in my mind. The social changes they experienced were also something I experienced in the past. We are like mirrors, reflecting the trajectory of the times.
Purple Portrait, 1989, oil on canvas, 130x97cm, picture provided by the Long March Space
Weight, 2018, acrylic on canvas, 250x300cm, picture provided by the Long March Space
Xⁿ: Compared to your early works, the compositions now seem unstable and more dramatic.
Yu: I used a lot of diagonal structures in compositions, which bring an unstable visual experience. Eventually, I realised that artists would put things they want to talk about the most in their earliest works without realisation. In the 90s, I painted wire walkers and people jumping on the trampoline. I found it very interesting the first time when trampolines had just appeared. Now that I looked back at it, maybe I was more interested in the moments when humans cannot control themselves. On the one hand, it is challenging to capture and draw people in motion. On the other hand, they have natural facial expressions and body language when they are weightless and cannot control their bodies. In classical art, portraits of people or deities are meticulously designed to shape the character from certain angles. On the contrary, I want to capture the natural status of a person’s state of being.
New Age, 2017, acrylic on canvas, 250x900cm, picture provided by the Long March Space
Xⁿ: In this exhibition, there are a couple of new paintings depicting the anxious reality of society. Their sizes and compositions are very dramatic and astonishing. Unlike your previous works, your focus shifted from personal memories and experiences to broader subject matters.
Yu: When I got older, I gradually found a level of anxiety lain in the relationship between people and the world, so I started drawing something focused on relatively broader. I have been very interested in religious paintings since The Gold Series. I think that religion or religious paintings are philosophical discussions of people, and they respond to the most fundamental questions of people. I hope that my paintings can also respond to the quintessential questions.
Heaven on Earth, 2018, acrylic on canvas, 750x300cm, picture provided by the Long March Space
Xⁿ: You depicted a fictional dramatic composition, different from the portraits you created based on your family and friends.
Yu: There are two types of works in my art creation. One is made based on people around me in real life. The other is created according to the stories that happened in my imagination. I am like a movie director, and I imagined a scene, a happening. Though the scene and the character look real, they are not based on anything in real life. Everyone in the painting is a figment of my imagination. I switch my works between these two types, and the two types of works nurture each other.
艳阳天, 1993, oil on canvas, 165x133cm, picture provided by the Long March Space
Two Parts, Left: China Pictorial, Issue 1, 1994, p. 25, The Three Gorges Dam Migration, 88x100cm; Yu Hong was pregnant when she was 28 in 1994, 2001, acrylic on canvas, 100x100cm, picture provided by the Long March Space
Xⁿ: I want to talk about the ‘body’ in your painting. Unlike other female artists, who used ‘body’ as a symbol or media, you pay attention to the ‘in-between state’ of a body, like a temporary moment or a transition. Your own body appeared in your paintings several times. Sometimes, you are standing naked in the wilderness, and sometimes, you are trudging through the bush. In some other paintings, you are having your daily moments. I think it is very cruel yet honest to show your own body in the compositions. What do you think of it?
Yu: I have painted my nude in Witness to Growth and in other series. I try to find a natural state of myself when depicting my own body. In school, we practised drawing with carefully posed models. However, I want the body to go back to a natural state that does not exist for the sake of viewing. My body in the painting illustrates a moment when I can be honest with myself and get along with myself. It is also a natural appearance of a human.
The Half-Hundred Mirrors series, Exhibition View, picture provided by the Long March Space
Xⁿ: The Half-Hundred Mirrors series is also a compendium of your past. The compositions make viewers feel like they are standing in front of a dimly lit stage backdrop. When did you start this series? Why did you choose such a style?
Yu: The Half-Hundred Mirrors series was created for Virtual Reality works, and all the paintings were directly applied to the VR work from August and September 2018. VR is an exciting form. Through the VR set, audiences are led to a dark space close to the dark environment of a movie theatre. It makes audiences feel like they are waiting for a movie to be played, full of excitement and expectation. Hence, I adopted that atmosphere to create such a series. Half-Hundred Mirrors displays the condensed lives of people. Life itself is theatrical, and I dramatise the composition even more to highlight it.
The Half-Hundred Mirrors series, Exhibition View, picture provided by the Long March Space
Half-Hundred Mirrors No. 23, 2018, acrylic on canvas, 120x100cm, picture provided by the Long March Space
Nostalgic Portrait, 1989, oil on canvas, 130x97cm, picture provided by the Long March Space
Xⁿ: The last work of Half-Hundred Mirrors is imposing. When I compare it to the Classic Portrait (1989), it is even more intriguing. In Classic Portrait, you are wearing a loose-fitting leather jacket, looking straight at the audience. In Half-Hundred Mirrors No. 23, you are holding a small mirror and looking at yourself, and the gaze reflected in the mirror on the small painting next to it turns back to the viewer. Why did you have such an arrangement?
Yu: Classic Portrait is one of my early works, and it represents uncertainty and provocation in my puberty. After so many years, I have had a lot of disappointment towards the world. One of the last two works of Half-Hundred Mirrors illustrates the scene where I am looking at a mirror. The other one illustrates a hand holding a mirror, and the mirror reflects me. This is me looking back at myself after I spent 50 years in this world. It is also the end of the series, and I introspect my past life in the mirror. I designed such a composition mainly for VR production.
The World of Female Painters, CAFA Art Museum, 1990
Xⁿ: It is unavoidable to talk about your art without talking about feminism. In 1990, you curated and participated in the first ‘female artist’ group exhibition, which caused a huge impact. Even though self-awareness of ‘feminism’ had not awakened in Chinese society, you had accepted the label of ‘female artist’ openly and were not surprised. However, unlike the Western concept of "feminism" which has strong political overtones, you observe the changes around you and other women and express their mentality and spirituality from your perspective. What do you think about that?
Yu: I am often categorised as a ‘feminist artist’. I think it is perhaps easy for people to categorise artists like that. My creation, of course, has a clear female perspective, as I perceive and understand the world from a female perspective, but I don't think the female perspective is necessarily different from others'. In fact, I care about things that other people also care about, such as humanity and the relationship between people and the world, which of course includes the relationship between women and the world, but it is more than merely a female perspective.
Xⁿ: There are numerous relationships between people and the world. There are people like labours, sex workers, and hostesses in your paintings. What prompted you to focus and scope your observations on this aspect?
Yu: I painted many commoners in my paintings. They engage the most ordinary jobs in society and are the most marginalised members of society, but they are the majority of the people. Therefore, they are the subject that I want to portray the most. The subjects I want to render the most are their circumstances, current situations, and relationships with the surrounding environments.
The Days, 1993, Movie Still
Days Gone By - Yu Hong, 2009, Movie Still, picture provided by the Long March Space
Xⁿ: You have participated in Bai Xian directed by Zhang Yuan for his graduation work, and ‘The Days’ directed by Wang Xiaoshuai. How did you end up collaborating with them? One decade later, Wang Xiaoshuai produced Days Gone By where you appeared on the screen again. I felt like the time has been compressed when I saw that. What did you feel about playing the lead in the two films?
Yu: I didn’t quite understand how filming worked at that time. The passion of my friends just influenced me, and I wanted to try something new. I didn’t actively participate in it, but just followed the requirements of the director and staff to act. After 16 years, I once again participated in the filming of Days Gone By – Yu Hong, and I travelled to the old place, which made me have mixed feelings about it. Time flies, and the world is changing too fast. The good times we had gone too quickly, which is very upsetting.
Xⁿ: Does your interest in movies influence your paintings or your ideas of graphic art?
Yu: Movie has influenced my painting in many ways, the major impact is the idea of timeliness. Painting is one type of medium on a flat surface and is limited to a bordered and limited space. Hence, the information that painting can carry is limited, so I try to embed abundant information and more hints of time in Witness to Growth and Half Hundred Mirrors. From my point of view, this is a possible development of painting.
Old Man Yu Gong Is Still Moving Away Mountains, 2017, acrylic on canvas, 500x900cm, picture provided by the Long March Space
Xⁿ: From the ‘David’ you drew when you were a student to your current art creation, what was the biggest challenge you face along the path? What was the ultimate goal in your art career?
Yu: From my time as a student to my current time, my art creation always follows my life path and changes along with the rhythm of life. The biggest challenge I face now is how to create something new every day and how to create something different from what I created yesterday. The world is changing too fast that our ideas and cognition can only run after these changes, and we cannot predict much about the future. What I can do is to communicate and interact with the world and obtain nourishments from the world and stimulate the imagination and courage to create.
Xⁿ: You’ve been painting several large-scale artworks in preparation for your solo exhibition. The workload is huge. What is your following plan?
Yu: I don’t have a particular plan right now. After the exhibition, I might take some time off and rest and take care of some chores in my life. I will continue to tweak and enrich the VR work, so there is a lot to do.
Yu Hong
Born in Beijing, China in 1966
Currently working and living in Beijing，China
与喻红老师相识几年来，Xⁿ Office一直想找机会对她做一次较为深入的专访。借喻红在上海龙美术馆个展的契机，探访了她的布展现场，并在此后进行了三次长短不一的轻松的采访。以下文字是基于这三次谈话的片段整理而得。我们认为喻红老师的个人经历、对时代作出的持续不断的敏感的反馈，是她成为中国当代艺术历史中的关键人物的原因，因此在这次的访谈中，我们以作品为主导，着重回顾了喻红老师过去三十多年的几个创作阶段和对一些关键问题的思考。
| 喻红, 上海
Xⁿ：借您在龙美术馆的个展《娑婆世界》开幕的契机，Xⁿ Office与您做一个长篇的访谈，希望能够回顾您过去三十年艺术生涯中不同阶段的变化以及作品背后的思考。您曾提到过，您和画画的缘分开始得很早，可以详细说说吗？
Yu：我小的时候学画没什么目的，只是父母不希望孩子出去乱跑，所以准备了纸笔让我在家画画消磨时间。那时候画画也是一件奢侈的事情，各种东西太匮乏，想买齐六只彩色画笔都很困难。我妈妈在出版社，有剩余的广告颜料，不画就干了，所以我每次画画前最兴奋的就是准备颜料，把颜料的皮撕开，掰成一块放在颜料盒里拿水泡，第二天泡软了再画。也是因此，画画也会带来一种额外的成就感，在我生活中持续下去。
到八九岁的时候，我开始去北京市少年宫学画，每个周末会去一个下午去那儿画画。最开始当然画的是儿童画，然后就开始学习基本的素描，画静物，画人像，然后在我14岁的时候，也就是1980年代，我考上了美院附中。从那以后，我开始接受比较正规的美术训练。在美院附中四年之后，我在1984年考上了中央美术学院油画系。
Xⁿ：在您大学时候已经有许多西方理论和作品画册在国内涌现，这与当时你们所受的艺术教育，以及当时社会对画家的定义差异很大，对您是否产生了很大冲击？
Yu：我上大学时刚刚改革开放不久，中央美院是当时最活跃的艺术机构之一。南来北往的艺术家、老师只要到北京都会去中央美院宿舍蹭住几个晚上。在这样的氛围下，只要凑到一起，大家都非常积极、投入的谈艺术，谈观念。
学校里也有很多小组、社团，热火朝天的进行各种艺术尝试。当时我们对新思想充满了好奇，参加过讨论小组，也参加了不少小型的、形式简单的画展，还临摹了许多当时能够找到的画册，自学了不少东西。我也逐渐发现西方定义的“艺术家”与我小时候想象中的要成为的“画家”完全不一样。但是在课堂上，我们仍然接受的是50年代苏派的社会主义现实主义绘画技巧，但这些绘画技巧的训练和自由创作完全是分开的。我当时觉得这些新潮的东西离自己很远，虽然在课外积极地了解新奇事物，但是回到课内就沉下心，安静地画画。这种绘画的状态放在今天已经很难想象。
我当时在美院画的《大卫》受到很大关注，也有人说这幅画后来再没有人超越。事实上我想和绘画技巧没有太大关系，是社会变化了，学生们心里有各种想法和焦虑的情绪，很少有人再以那样心如止水的状态画画了。
Xⁿ：85新潮时候您已经在中央美院读大学，虽然您没有参与85新潮，但这股潮流对您有什么影响吗？
Yu：那个时候创作界主要是两条路，一条是以乡土自然为主题，另一条是在野的社会上的新潮美术。那些比较观念、比较前卫的作品，在学校里也有很多学生做，这类作品产生了不少影响。但是我还是选择做一个“积极的旁观者”，重心仍然放在绘画领域的研习。
Xⁿ：您的毕业创作是一些朋友的肖像，追求相对平面、波普式的效果。类似的方式在张培力、耿建翌当时的作品中也能看到，玩世现实主义的作品中也很常见，当时您是为什么从学院派的画法转向了这种表现方式？这种风格一直延续到什么时期结束?
Yu：这里我需要更正一下，我的毕业创作不是这件作品，而是两个肖像和两组人物绘画，描绘了一种人山人海的状态。那个时期我还处于一种学习的状态，两张肖像非常细腻、具有平面感，另外那两组人物采用了比较表现主义的方式。
你提到的这组肖像是从1988年大学毕业以后开始画的，这一阶段我开始寻找更加明确的创作方向。所以我选择了身边熟悉的人，使用非常波普的、平面的单色效果来表现他们，通过这样的方式，我可以将人物从现实中抽离，产生一种超现实、人与现实相顾游离的关系。在当时还没有电脑和PS的时候，这种画法比较有挑战性。培力、老耿他们采用这种画法更多的带有政治性的目的，我从一开始就比较个人性，生活化，试图避开政治话题。
Xⁿ：的确，许多批评家、艺术史学家把以您与刘小东为代表的“新生代”艺术家形容为“85新潮”的反面，更关注周遭事物、生活化的细节，而非政治理想。您曾说：“文革那个时期大部分谈论的都是’我们’，没有 ‘我’。 ‘我们’作为一个集体，作为一个民族，作为一个国家， ‘我们’应该如何如何。个人就像大海里的一滴水，消失了，个人价值难以体现。”这是否也是您的对个人体验更感兴趣的原因？
Yu：也许由于我成长于文革末期，曾看到大人们参与各种政治运动、游行，所以我对假大空、红光亮这这种特别高调，特别概念的东西比较排斥。我对更加亲密、细微、直观和感受性的东西更有兴趣，所以我创作了上面提到的同龄人的肖像系列，那是最早的一组创作。随后又画了“目击成长”系列。
Xⁿ：随着您成为母亲，创作《目击成长》开始，您将关注点投向了个人生活和时代交叉并行的轨迹。在这个系列中，您记录的既是自己和家人的成长变化，也是和您同一时代的其他人的人生轨迹：在大潮流变迁中长大，学习，工作，结婚，生子，再注视着孩子的成长。我和父亲一起在龙美术馆看您的《目击成长》，他时不时兴奋的指着其中一幅，回忆他的那一年。而对于没有同样经历的我们来说，有的图像仍然十分动人，例如您剪刘海的那幅，立刻让人想起《冬春的日子》，好像马上可以进入画面空间，您一边认真修刘海，蒸腾着热气的室内还响着收音机播报的新闻，带有那个时代浓烈的气味。《目击成长》的图像与新闻图片并置的方式，能激活许多观看者鲜活的记忆，捕捉一些滑入时间很难追回的瞬间。这是在创作《目击成长》时，对所选图像的考量标准之一吗？
Yu：在《目击成长》系列中，右边都是从我的家庭相册里选出的图片，完全遵从原照片，黑白照片就用黑白色来表达，彩色就使用彩色。左边都是官方出版过的新闻图片，这两者之间并不一定有直接的关系，但是都发生在同一年，所以从个人与社会两条线索，它们构成同一个时代背景、社会氛围。
Xⁿ：《目击成长》也像是一本关于您的创作的“大画册”，一个对于研究者来说很有用的“档案库”。例如2011年，您的个展“黄金界” 在上海美术馆开幕，展览现场也被记录在了《目击成长》中。在展览“黄金界”中展出了以《捣练图》的结构为参考的《春恋图》，受到祭坛画影像的《天梯》和《昏睡百年》，还有与以意大利天顶画《大力神和四季》为蓝本，需要仰视观看的《天井》。除了对古典绘画的长期兴趣之外，还有什么原因促使了这个系列的诞生吗？ 您在当时的采访中说道：“我希望这种展示和观看方式能重拾绘画在过去时代的荣耀。”当时是什么引发了您新的思考？
Yu：这个系列的想法源于我学生时代去敦煌写生，后来在创作这个系列之前我又带着学生们去了一趟敦煌。洞窟绘画给我带来一种强烈的体验感——与平面绘画不同，洞窟绘画占据了四壁天顶，融为一体，营造出一个场域。这也是绘画真正的起源。 所以我想通过个系列追溯这个源头。这就意味着绘画不能仅仅是一个有边界限制的平面，而应该是一个整体性的场域，并能够使观众沉浸在这个场域内，形成新的对话关系。
Xⁿ：在创作《天井》的同期，您受邀在上海的一处宅邸绘制天顶壁画，也被您记录在了《目击成长》中，这是什么样的契机？您在天顶上画了什么呢？
Yu：壁画的经历发生在《天井》的创作之后。那是我在上海最早的英国领事馆做的，这幢老宅经过修复后邀请艺术家参与创作。有了创作悬挂在展厅上空、需要仰视观看的《天井》的经验之后，我很开心能有机会画真的天顶壁画。那幅壁画也是以金色为背景，主题与音乐有关，花了大概2个月的时间。
Xⁿ：这次在龙美术馆的《娑婆世界》展览中，您展出了几对数十年前画过，近期再画的肖像画，同时您还与这几位朋友做了访谈，聊聊他们这些年的经历。您是访谈在先，然后再做画？过去的那张，例如您画的姜杰、肖鲁，均参照一张摄影画成，带有纪录的性质，而新创作的这幅似乎有许多设计的部分，例如在第二幅肖鲁的画中，您将她今年的一些行为作品浓缩在了一起。为什么要将采访与绘画结合？要在局限的画面空间上捕捉她们这些年来的成就、经历、变化，其中最困难的部分是什么？
Yu：这次为《娑婆世界》画的十幅肖像都基于画前给他们做的视频采访。采访的问题基本一致，都是请他们回顾自己的童年，青春到后来的生活，聊了聊其中的细节。虽然他们大都是我多年的好友，但平时见面也不会聊到这么严肃、深入的话题，所以这次访谈对于后来的肖像创作而言非常重要。
通过访谈，我重新了解他们，理解他们的生活，他们的世界观，然后再基于此进行新肖像的创作。所以，第二幅肖像画并不是把他们当做模特摆在那儿，而是将很多元素、信息组合在一起，呈现出一个我心目中的他们。他们所经历的社会变化也是我所经历的，我们都像镜子一样，折射出时代的轨迹。
Xⁿ：对比您早期的作品，现在的构图似乎更加不稳定，更加戏剧化。
Yu：我在画面中采用了很多对角线的结构，带给人不稳定的视觉感受。我后来慢慢发现，一个画家最想讨论的东西其实在他最初期的作品中都有，只是那时自己没有意识到或者不太明显。我在90年代初的时候画过很多走钢丝的人、蹦床上飞起来的人，当时有这个想法，是因为蹦床刚出现，只是觉得新鲜，但现在回头来看，我可能更感兴趣的是那种人不受自己控制的瞬间。运动中的人一方面很难画，另一方面重力使他们无法控制自己的表情和身体，也更真实，更自然。古典艺术中，肖像画、神像都力图从一个精心设计的角度塑造对象，而我则特别想捕捉一个人自然纯粹的存在状态。
Xⁿ：这次展览中的几幅新画描绘社会令人不安的现实，惊人的尺幅和画面的戏剧性很非常震撼。与您早年的创作不同，您的关注点似乎从个人的记忆、经历转向了更宏大的题材。
Yu：到了一定年龄之后，我渐渐对这个世界，人和世界的关系有一种忧虑感，因此开始画一些相对更宏大的题材。
自从 “金色系列”开始，我就对宗教绘画特别感兴趣。我认为宗教或者宗教绘画都是对人的哲学讨论，直面人最基本的问题。我希望我的绘画也能对人最基本的问题作出思考。
Xⁿ：您在画中设计了一个虚构的戏剧性的画面，与您以个人和朋友家人为模特的作品差异很大。
Yu：我的创作，总体来说，是两条线，一条以真实的对象为基础，另一条是在想象空间发生的故事。我就像一个导演，设计出一个场景，一种发生。虽然这个场景与人物看起来很真实，但并没有依据某个实际的对象创作，画中的每个人都是我虚构而成的。我始终都在这两条线上不断切换，两者也相互滋养。
Xⁿ：我想和您聊聊您画中的“身体”。与其他曾用身体作为符号或载体的女艺术家不同，在您的绘画中，您似乎更关注身体所处的“中间状态”，临时的、过渡的时刻。您自己的身体几次出现在作品中，裸身站在旷野中，翻越树林，还有一些日常的瞬间，把自己的身体呈现在画面中，在我想象中，既坦诚又残酷。您是怎么看的？
Yu：我在《目击成长》里画过自己的裸体，在后面的绘画中也画过一些。在描绘自己的身体时候我试着寻找一种真实的状态。从上学时候开始，我们就一直练习画刻意摆好各种姿态的模特。但是在自己的创作中，我希望让身体回归到一个不为了观看而存在的、自然的状态。画中的我，处于自己和自己相处的时刻，也是一个真实的人的样子。
Xⁿ：《半百》这个系列也是对过往回忆的梳理，画面主体都像站在昏暗舞台背景前。这个系列是从什么时候开始的？为什么选择了这样的风格？
Yu：这个系列是为VR作品《半百》来创作的，从2018年的8、9月份开始集中的画了一批画，画中的形象被直接应用在VR作品中。VR这个形式很有趣，它通过佩戴设备将观众引入一个黑暗的空间，很接近剧场或者影院即将开场时的状态，让人充满期待的等待着。所以，我就借用了舞台的氛围创作这一组作品，再加上半百系列展示的就是一个浓缩的人生，本身就有一种戏剧性，所以我在画面中尽量加强了这种戏剧性的特质。
Xⁿ：《半百》的最后一张令人印象深刻，与您早年的《怀旧肖像》（1989）放在一起看更有意思。在《怀旧肖像》中您穿着宽大的皮衣直视观众，而在《半百No.23》中，您拿着一面小镜子，望向自己，紧邻着的小画上，镜子里映照出的目光又投向了观看者。这样的安排是出于什么考虑
Yu：早期的《怀旧肖像》中，充满青春时的不确定和挑衅。过了几十年，我内心中更多的是对这个世界的一种怅然。《半百》的最后两张，一是是我在照镜子，另一张是拿镜子的一只手，镜子上反射的是我自己的形象，是中年人年过半百之后回望自己的目光。这是整个系列的结尾，也是通过镜子中的目光回忆过往的人生。这个安排主要也是从VR的制作角度来考量的。
Xⁿ：女性主义是谈到您的创作历程时，难以回避的话题。1990年您就策划、参与了第一个“女性画家”群展，引起了很大的轰动，虽然当时不具有对“女性主义”的自主意识，但也可以看到您坦然的接受了这个”女性画家”的标签，并不引以为奇。但是与西方带有强烈政治色彩的“女性主义”概念不同，您从个人的角度，观察自己的和周围女性的变化，也着力表现她们的心理状态和精神气质。您个人是怎么看的？
Yu：我经常被冠以“女性主义艺术家”的标签，我想这也许是为了便于对艺术家进行分类。我个人的创作当然有很明确的女性视角，毕竟我是从女性的角度观察、理解世界的。但是我认为女性的视角不一定就与别人的有多大不同。事实上我最关心的是一些共通的东西，比如人性，比如人与世界的关系，这林林总总的关系中当然包括了女性与世界的关系，但不仅仅是女性视角这么简单。
Xⁿ：人与这个世界的关系有千千万万种，在您的画中常出现劳工、小姐、礼仪小姐等类型的人，是什么促使您将观察的重心和范围放在这一方面？
Yu：在作品中，我画了很多普通人，他们从事着社会最底层或者最平凡的工作，但他们是人群中的大多数，这也是我最想描绘的人群——我最想描绘的是他们在这个社会中的境遇、所处的状态，和周遭世界的关系。
Xⁿ：您曾经参演过张元的毕业作品的《白线》，王小帅的《冬春的日子》，当时是怎样的契机产生了合作？时隔十几年，王小帅又监制了纪录片《冬春之后》，突然再次看到您在荧幕上，感觉就像时间突然被压缩了。您做为主角，在这两段的拍摄过程中有什么特别的感受吗？
Yu：那时候并不明白拍电影是怎么回事，只是被朋友的热情感染，抱着好玩儿的心情参与拍摄。当时也没有太多主动的意识，只是跟着摄制组、导演的要求拍摄。十六年后，我又参加了拍摄《冬春之后-喻红篇》，故地重游感慨挺多的，时间过得太快了，世界的变化太大，过去的美好这么快就消逝了，令人怅然若失。
Xⁿ：您对电影的兴趣，对您的绘画、或对平面艺术的思考有什么启发或影响吗？
Yu：电影对我的绘画有很多影响，最主要的影响在于对“时间性”的思考。绘画是一个平面媒介，被限定在一定的尺寸范围之内呈现。所以绘画可以承载的信息量是有限的，也是因此我尝试在《目击成长》、《半百》系列里尽量融入更丰富的信息和时间线索。在我看来，这是对绘画可能性的一种拓展。
Xⁿ：您从学生时期的《大卫》到今天的创作历程中，面对的最大的挑战是什么？您认为您的艺术终极的理想或方向是什么？
Yu：从学生时期到现在，我的创作始终跟着我的生活走，伴随着生活节奏的变化而变化。我所面临的最大的挑战就是能否在每一张画中画出一些新的、和昨天不一样的东西。世界的变化如此之快，我们的思维和认知都只能追着它跑，难以对未来做出太多预设。而我能做的就是不断与这个世界交流、互动，不断从中获取养分，激发创作的想象力和勇气。
Xⁿ：接连创作几幅大尺幅作品、个展，这么高强度的工作，您真是辛苦了，接下来还有什么计划吗？
Yu：目前没有什么特别的计划，展览工作告一段落，可以稍微休息一下，处理琐事。VR的作品还会再继续进行调整和丰富。所以还有许多工作要做。
喻红
1966年生于中国北京
现工作生活于中国北京